LETS WRITE SOME STANDARDS!!

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TOwBoY88		#41	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6326 07/01/2008 19:05 WreckMaster #060814 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member	Well, actually, I don't even think our Judges take drug tests...hmmm... But, we are trying to up our industry -- drug testing is one step. As for the HS or GED; Like I told Kevin, I'd rather someone know what the heck the working load limit of a 3/8'' steel core wire rope was than have one of those. He agreed but then said he would like someone who could actually spell and write..which I agreed, but what jury in the world do you think is going to ask the tow operator, "Hey, did you graduate..?" when he is standing there facing them about the wire rope that failed and killed a by standard OR do you think they will be more concerned for your lack of education surrounding your equipment...???? I think it's pretty safe to say it will be your equipment ratings and why you failed to know them...not "Can you write this bill out for me clearly..?" I like what Brian (Freedom) had to say. He is 200% correct. Everyone but US. I will however say, we should all be called OPERATORS. Not drivers. I just looked up and re-read one of Jan's post about not getting to the operating standards yet. I feel, as said above, it all falls into one big package. Maybe I am off track...? I have a few ideas floating in my head...but have a wreck to go on now...will check back later on this subject. BTW Jan, if you could -- please email me; Bmac4u2@aol.com "60% of the time, I am right every time."
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BROTHERSANDSONS		#42	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1678 07/01/2008 20:59 Florida	Let me try another slant on this....... IF( I beleive WHEN but lets go with IF for now) we establish the Wrecker Operators Academy........wouldn't the students ability to learn and retain be a factor in accepting applicants? WLL is one side of the equation, that anyone can master as it is basically memory.hell you could color code the components to make it easier.......BUT.....what about calculating the resistance....most problems I have seen on jobs with operators is them NOT knowing the resistance.most times no problem as we can easily overpower the casualty.but what about the 10% of the jobs that actually present a mathematical problem......weight/mired/damage/elevation resistance? what about Haz mat, what about mechanical theory ( I've made a few guys go "no SH*T " in this life by disconnecting air rides to jack trailers, deflate air rides to lower em from under bridges etc etc......simple to people who understand the concepts) Brake systems, Anti Theft bypasses, reading a lock out manual or even a MAP and a ton of other things that are obvious to more experienced guys....we are talking about teaching raw recruits here....what kind of recruit do you want? me personally...I'm a Few and the Proud kinda guy.....high entry standards yield higher success rates. There are no traffic jams along the extra mile
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TOwBoY88		#43	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6327 07/01/2008 22:13 WreckMaster #060814 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member	Jan, that is 100% right. That's where I was getting; Equipments ratings, resistances, etc. etc. -- you should KNOW before pulling the lever. "60% of the time, I am right every time."
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general tow		#44	[url]	[-]
Posts: 555 07/02/2008 09:36 PTRAA 1st Vice Pres Arkansas	How does an operator know the WLL of his equipment or how to rig for the resistance on the pull he is preparing to do? How does he know all the other things associated with performing the jobs we do? Any way you look at it this knowledge comes in the form of education. Education comes in many forms including OJT or even trial and error teaching yourself but as industry we can no longer rely on trial and error in public view. The basic education requirements only show a persons desire to learn and their ability to be taught and retain enough of this knowledge to pass a test. In front of a jury answering to a lawyer an answer of " I just know the WLL of my equipment because I do this every day" will not fly. How do you answer when asked where you gained this knowledge or how did you learn this? In todays enviormnet we had better be educated before we perform in public. Enough of my soap box but I would hope that everyone sees the need for education as a requirement. STEVE
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TOwBoY88		#45	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6331 07/02/2008 13:22 WreckMaster #060814 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member	WOW. I see how words/opinions can get going in the wrong direction quickly here. It's pretty silly to think the answer would be, "I just know". That is insulting I think. That is WHY there would be a standard so people would KNOW...from EDUCATIONAL studies. That's basically what I said, without putting out 5,000 words to do it -- I thought some would be smart enough to grasp what I was getting at..? I mean, how do you think they are going to know...??? I thought that was pretty self explanatory...guess I was wrong...??? I think everyone pretty much gets there will have to be a course to teach it...AGREED...??? You can look across the pond and see what they have been doing. I was talking to one of our U.K. members and the testing that is done there. Operators are tested on the equipment they run (i.e. Flatbed testing, LD Wrecker Towing and Recovery testing). Sounds like a great place to start for us...I should have some more information on it soon and will post it here and see where we can take it. "60% of the time, I am right every time."
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BROTHERSANDSONS		#46	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1680 07/02/2008 15:31 Florida	www.ivruk.com www.itssar.org.uk I've posted these before, courtesy of Nick Ovendon.awesome set of standards and procedures...very interesting reading There are no traffic jams along the extra mile
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Kyresqtow		#47	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2270 07/02/2008 15:42 WreckMaster #071094 Kentucky	And Billy that is why we are pushing for minimum of Highschool or GED... if they couldn't make it that far are they going to learn and retain anything further.... When setting standards we have to set minimums.... we are not setting maximums... what is the bare minimum before you will hire someone... that is what we were looking for... As far as the testing that is why I was stating written and hands on.... Kevin L Kallmeyer 2nd generation tower ASE Certified Master Automobile/Lt. Truck Technician, ASE Certified Med/Hvy Truck Technician, SSI Dive Control Specialist, SSI Stress and Rescue Diver, Wreckmaster #071094 Cell Shop Website (859) 991-5760 (859) 341-6606 www.kensnky.com
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general tow		#48	[url]	[-]
Posts: 556 07/02/2008 15:50 PTRAA 1st Vice Pres Arkansas	You might be surprized at some answers given in the courtroom. I have been called in as a witness in cases involving towing and have heard some unbelivable answers given. I have also read in this thread as to how some people would rather have a dedicated hard working employee in place of an educated one. What is wrong in expecting education and dedication. My post on this subject have been aimed at stressing the importance of education in todays world and the future. It is true that there have been many successful people that do not have diplomas, but I believe that they still have gained education in some form to make them what they are. I believe that those days are pretty much gone and that in todays world you have very little chance of success in any form without at least a basic education. Enough said, lets move on as I think the majority here agrees with the education requirement. STEVE
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TOwBoY88		#49	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6334 07/02/2008 17:52 WreckMaster #060814 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member	Kevin, many of the "standards" set forth for your Great Great Grandpa, Great Grandpa, Grandpa, Dad, and you were written by men with no "formal education". I know what you are going to say, "different times". And I agree. Problem still remains however (from a message I received from Mr. McGovern), such a requirement would most likely violate the EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE of the US Constitution. All it takes is ONE guy without one to dispute this "standard" and show a high level of intelligence in the towing and recovery field. "60% of the time, I am right every time."
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WheelLiftWarrior		#50	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1777 07/02/2008 17:53 Florida	Hmm after reading all these post's there are alot of good post's.......Now im going to talk about education with a minimum of a GED or Highschool diploma..............My own opinion and only mine I do not believe in this as a basic requirement in the towing industry and this is why......For example lets get away from jobs and lets look at other things out there in life that could maybe make this more understandable....A chess player for example doesnt need to go to school to become one of the best players in the world or be one of the highest ranked players in the nation.....this is a trait or a skill he or she learned growing up in life that maybe they were better then anyone else at but never went to school for it they were just naturally good at it.......basketball players for instance usually go into the NBA right out of highschool without any education and are good at what they do and make tons of money doesnt mean they arent smart but remember there are street smarts and book smarts.....Wakeboards snow skiers motorcross riders alot of them never finished school but excelled in these sports/hobbies better then most why because they were naturally good at it and didnt need to go to school to become some of the best.....Now that you see where im going I think if you have common sense and dont get me wrong some kind of smarts you can dominate anything you put your mind to .....Look at me I graduated from the University of Florida and Im a towtruck driver.......but let me tell you something I picked up flatbed/wheelift towing and recovery techniques like it was second hand nature....common sense and the ability to think is what made me so good at it.....I Have a bad case of A.D.D when I was in school I didnt want to pay attention if it didnt interest me,but give me something I like or want to learn and I'll soak it up like a shamy in water.......Now this is where I have the problem with the education and dont get me wrong some is needed but a buddy of mine who operates H.D in another state is the most smartest and creative thinking person I have ever seen in the industry and tries to teach me everything he knows he never finish highschool he was just naturally good at learning watching and and soaking up every answer to every question he asked.......Tell you what if you seen him operate and talked to him bet you would never know he didnt finish highschool the guy sounds smarter then me and I went to school..... 561.747.3212 Last Edited By: WheelLiftWarrior 07/02/2008 17:57. Edited 1 time.
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BROTHERSANDSONS		#51	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1683 07/02/2008 18:28 Florida	Mike, I was waiting for that analogy, and its a VERY common one..here's the rub, all the SKILLS you mentioned are just that skills.Now there are skills required in our industry, for sure, but, that's a physical aptitude, which you cannot discriminate against because of speed. Such as the ability to climb up on a casualty, or hook a 5/8 g100 chain overhead, or a million other things. The Fire Service deals with it by having a physical aptitude entry exam..climbing ladders, dragging 100 lb rescue dummies etc, to weed out those who, have desire for sure, but, are lacking the physical tools to accomplish the job. The wrecker Industry, while an emergency service doesn't have to operate in a physically demanding life or death situation such as a structure fire( although a Trooper might scare you half to death if your going to slow) but they do have to accomplish physical objectives( try swinging a 22 ton snatch block up to a boom clevis.) Fact is the educational requirements for this job are becoming a more glaring deficiency than the ability of individuals to accomplish the physical tasks. While innate skills and co-ordination are admirable qualities, even the "average" human being with average strength and co-ordination can do this job, WITH the proper education! I had earlier mentioned the old " best fireman = best Fire Chief " mentality of not to many years ago.....you can see the fallacy of that thought process. The CANDIDATE must be of a minimal standard so they can be trained to meet the minimum standard. We are not all equal, we all know people who just excel, for no apparent reason other than they are blessed. We need to consider them, no doubt, but, we need to write a standard that covers the masses....exceptions are just that and can be accommodated. How many current Wrecker Instructors will give their written exam orally to a student who needs it? Can we give a 13 week course that way ? I'm just asking There are no traffic jams along the extra mile
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towman26		#52	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1289 07/02/2008 23:05 Featured Member February 2008 Elite Member Company Florida	Let me first say yes we need to improve the Standards for the industry but that also means to get companies to bring there prices into the 21 century. On the education point I dont feel that a GED or HS diploma are anything to jump up & down about. I know several people that went thru several years of collage & are still just a secratary, (not that is a bad proffesion, but thats not what they went to collage for) then there are others that havent got the HS or GED & are running multi million dollar corps. We need to start at age 21 & go from there. Warren Driscoll KW Wrecker Service 561-307-4869 *158692009*
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freedomtowbh		#53	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7881 07/03/2008 00:36 Featured Member February 2007 WreckMaster #040309	i use personal experiance for an example. when i went thru my WreckMaster training 2/3 4/5 6/7 and several set ins (i only use WreckMaster because i have not yet had the opportunity to attend other fine classes with other great instructors) the class was full of towers in all different levels of the carrears. we soak up great information , performed some awesome recoveries, learned alot of technical info on WLL,resistance, lines to the load and so much more. when it came down to the test and the math that went with it. it was no piece of cake. lifelong towers and newbie towers both realized that the world of towing was no longer a walk on the beach. i personally was over whelmed with info and my eyes where opened up to the reality of what the future has instore for us as an industry. as of right now any joe blow can walk in off the streets and go drive a tow truck without even having to know what a j hook is. they can go hook up to something hit a lever and pull till something breaks . god forbid a innocent person driving bye or watching gets struck or killed because some person with no knowledge was allowed to go work. can i go get a gun and badge and be allowed to be a law enforcement officer or is there some learning and qualifications that i must do first? we are not trying to make this to where we must be a brain surgeon to comprehend or pass. in order to be able to properly charge and get paid a fair and resonable rate so that companies can afford to pay their operators competative wages with benefits then something has to change. we can no longer set back with the mentality of in the future the government may do something. the future is here now and its happening already, states are writing laws and requiring tow companies to guidelines to follow. it will be a domino effect and tommorrow when we wake up it's gonna be a whole new ballgame with an entirely different out look with how the towing industry is ran. who better to serve the towing industry in the way things should be than the towing industry itself. after several weeks of trying to brainstorm standards we all get hung up on ged or diploma lol lets get on to the next stage and work from here.i will give credit atleast there is talk about something it's a hell of alot better than nonthing at all. life is too short to just sit back and do nonthing. WESTWAY bound and looking foward to paradise HOME OF LUGNUT FUTURE WRECKMASTER IN TRAINING ALL POSTS AND COMMENTS ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND MAY NOT REFLECT MY EMPLOYERS VIEWS. STILL DA KING OF JUNKIN
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WheelLiftWarrior		#54	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1778 07/03/2008 10:53 Florida	Oh I forgot.I do believe in the whole idea of training and some sort of certification with the hands on and classroom activities and possibly a written exam,but tell you what funny thing is no matter how many years of school I will always sucks at math lol.Hey I can do your adding subtracting multiplying and division I just need a pen and paper or a caculator = ) 561.747.3212
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tator		#55	[url]	[-]
Posts: 414 07/03/2008 13:52 WreckMaster #080532	Now that we have make believe standards who is going to enforce them ? How many of the people on here are using these standards now ? Bud
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PGhrist		#56	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1484 07/03/2008 14:01 ITRHFM Friend Member WreckMaster #99675 Ohio	I agree with giving this industry a more "professional" appearance!!! But, I would like to add that I started at age 18 straight from high school. I only had a valid drivers license and the dream of driving tow trucks! As long as tow company owners are prepared to "pay up" then I could see this work!?! You can't tow for a motor club at $25 and expect to pay your driver a decent wage! I now have 12 years experience, LOVE this industry, but would like to see things change so the "employee" can make a decent salary!!! Just my .02!!! "If you do it... they will follow!" Paul Ghrist *Sr.* Jeswald Auto Truck Service Austintown,Ohio All thoughts and expressions are mine and not, in any way, those of my employer!
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BROTHERSANDSONS		#57	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1685 07/03/2008 15:09 Florida	ok.focus time... The purpose of this thread is to come up with minimum standards for the Industry. Tator, all we have now are make believe standards and NO one can enforce those. If we had a comprehensive set of professional standards like so many other professions have, it would make our Industry more quantifiable, respected, and accountable. If WE write em.then we can enforce them. How can anyone make a case for higher rates when even though the equipment costs huge money and the fuel and the insurance....the perception of our operators varies from highly Professional to a complete hack ...even amongst our own community.Everyone knows at least one someone who doesn't belong in our Industry We are trying to further the mission...I've been down this road before and the stumbling blocks are huge, we've spent 2 weeks arguing if a HS Diploma or GED should be a requirement......whats gonna happen when we get to tools and techniques??? Everyone just take a deep breath....we are not trying to put anyone out of business, we are not passing judgment on anyone's qualifications or circumstance. We are attempting to set a standard for the FUTURE...where Certified, professional operators and operations will elevate our bargaining position with our customer base. We are one of the FEW "necessary evil" (can't live without em) Industries that is NOT regulated. Some body is going to do it and it better be us.not "them" I have very very strong ideas of how I would like to see it be. I am keeping my opinions to myself because I want to know what the rest of the world thinks. Trust me, If it WERE up to me.this would be a very very stringent set of standards......only the motivated, educated, and dedicated would be able to pass the grade.THATS MY OPINION.and I know its just that.....lets stick to the project at hand....... What should be the MINIMUM STANDARDS to be certified as a Wrecker Operator 101? so far 21 yrs of age HS Diploma or GED Criminal back Ground check Valid Driver License Pass Drug Test anything else? There are no traffic jams along the extra mile
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general tow		#58	[url]	[-]
Posts: 558 07/03/2008 15:15 PTRAA 1st Vice Pres Arkansas	Standards in my company are not make believe and they are enforced in house. Things were not always this way as years ago we were like most others and did whatever to survive. Now I see other local companies watch what happens here and copy what we do. If we make a point of using 4 point tie downs, they start to do the same. This may be a long process but it will work if enough companies enforce themselves and if nothing else it will raise the image of that company and they will reap the benefits. STEVE
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BROTHERSANDSONS		#59	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1687 07/03/2008 15:58 Florida	general tow wrote: Standards in my company are not make believe and they are enforced in house. That is why your a leader in my eyes Steve...well said and a small leap for mankind There are no traffic jams along the extra mile
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tator		#60	[url]	[-]
Posts: 416 07/03/2008 19:15 WreckMaster #080532	Around here it doesn't work that way. We invest the money in training the competition still dose the same as always. I would like to see this happen. Damn it would save a lot of time and headache showing up on scene and not having to clean up a mess another company left you. I think the abilty to pass a entry level exam over the ones you have up now. There are still alot of people doing this that couldn't read the test. By the end of September I'll have about 7,000 invested in training for myself and two part time employees. Never see that being reqiured by our industry. We are not talking about one company we are talking about the industry. How many of us have untrained employees in our trucks now? Not ones we have showed how we want it done Certified by a instructor be it Wes Tom Wreckmaster or someone else. If we are going to raise the bar lets raise it not discuss it here. Example I'm going to air cushion class in September and don't even have a set of cushions before I get them I want to know how they work. Did the same when I bought our first heavy two of us went to training. We are over looking that in my opinion. Bud
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