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heavytrainee		#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 37 03/21/2008 01:01	I understand that a snatch block changes the weight on the winch. i was stateing that putting a snatch block to decrease the load off the boom is not correct Stay Safe Matt Nahlik
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Popie		#22	[url]	[-]
Posts: 35 03/21/2008 02:20 Directory Listing Pending	I feel like I am in the twilight zone trying to understand the confusion on this. I think that Danielwt has only one problem with his theory. When you are hooking back to same point with snatch block (Boom Tip) there is no angle change at all. And the degree makes no difference at all in the weight on the boom. If you were to have1 line or 300 all hooked from tip to load, the load on the tip is the SAME. IE: Say you are hooked up with wire rope 1 line tip to load, then change to a solid bar there is 1 strand in bar and many small strands in the rope tip still has same weight pulling on it! Last Edited By: Popie 03/21/2008 02:24. Edited 1 time.
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danielswt		#23	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2475 03/21/2008 10:08 Featured Member April 2007 WreckMaster #020943	i give up. its there ,its real ,my numbers may not be 100% accurat but it does excist.
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BIGTOW16148		#24	[url]	[-]
Posts: 86 03/21/2008 11:18	I think that Danielwt has only one problem with his theory. When you are hooking back to same point with snatch block (Boom Tip) there is no angle change at all. And the degree makes no difference at all in the weight on the boom. It is not a theory it is a fact. The only way you can lift any load with your boom and have it be the same weight as the load is if you pick it up with out using your wire rope (IE lifting with a chain to the d ring.) I'm not good at explaining things in writing if anybody has any ? you can call me any time (724)813-3663 David Garon Preston America WM020447 6/7
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Freelance66		#25	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17623 03/21/2008 12:19 Featured Member December 2002 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member WreckMaster #050354 15,000 + Moderator	Popie - the theories used are explained in various training courses (notably WreckMaster that I know of) and are part and parcel of the crane industry. It is hard to tell it, but diagrams can explain it better. Basically the load on a line has a beginning point (winch in this case) and an ending point (the machine). If the winch was directly above the load there is no doubt the actual weight of the load is all that is on the line/winch. When you extend the line sideways to the load you are adding leverage to the total. Better example - 5 gal bucket of water. If you lift it one armed right next to your body/leg it is not so hard. If you were to lift that same load with your arm fully extended it is much harder due to leverage (or lack of). If you extended your arm half that distance the resistance to lift would be halfway in between the easy way and the hardest way your body can provide...... Hope that actually helped. It normally isn't until something fails that most of us take a harder look at what is happening at every point of our industry....... Experience is something you normally get right after you need it.......
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danielswt		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2478 03/21/2008 13:26 Featured Member April 2007 WreckMaster #020943	freelance. i am reffering to a verticle pick only. not a horizontal pull.
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TOwBoY88		#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6071 03/21/2008 15:32 WreckMaster #060814 I.T.R.H.F.M. Regular Member	WEIGHT vs ANGLES "But it weighs 1,000 LBS". "60% of the time, I am right every time."
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Popie		#28	[url]	[-]
Posts: 37 03/21/2008 16:01 Directory Listing Pending	Well I just reread a lot of posts. It looks like we are talking about 2 different things One the force on the Wire and the shivs and other is the actual down force (weight) When I see [reduce the tip load on the boom], I think only of weight hanging on it (pulling it towards the ground) I think some are talking about the force on the shivs and pins holding them? (IE: anything from the wench to end of wire Hook) The chart above is a perfect example of the extra pull/stress added to a wire or chain at angles. But does not change the weight pulling down on the boom.
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hookin29		#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1096 03/21/2008 16:43 New Jersey	No matter how we do this the weight is still the same no matter how many parts of cable we put in line here. 10,000 pounds is still 10,000 pounds...... The only thig we change is the amout of weight on eqach cable but the load is still the same which is still the same load applied to the boom. What part are we arguing here or what are we comparing.... Tip load or force applied???????
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danielswt		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2479 03/21/2008 18:08 Featured Member April 2007 WreckMaster #020943	that chart that billy posted up has nothing to do with what i am trying to explain. when i go home tonight i will get out the pen,paper, angle factor chart and my protrator and whip something up.
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scooby		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5020 03/21/2008 18:24 Featured Member September 2005 WreckMaster #050302 Supplier Member Moderator New York State	I honestly have no idea about the details. I was not the operator on this one. I just posted the pics. this has been a age old problem here why would one post pics, that they where not on the job???
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danielswt		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2480 03/21/2008 18:54 Featured Member April 2007 WreckMaster #020943	scooby, you opened my eyes to something...i am going to quit my debate because we are wayyyy off topic here. my fault.
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scooby		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5027 03/21/2008 19:41 Featured Member September 2005 WreckMaster #050302 Supplier Member Moderator New York State	actually this is in the wrong forum I believe also. It should not be in a towing forum. In which we will move If know-one steps forward who was actually on the job and can possibly have input, I'm going to close this. This has been and will continue to be a problem here on the board I guess. I see no reason why anyone would post pics unless they are involved with the job. When pics are posted, they should be posted by personal that where on location. Hell even if you where directing traffic, at least you where there. It kind of gives a impression that its your job, when in the end, everyone finds out its not. when comments turn sour, then we have well I wasn't there, which isn't fair to those people posting jobs and hanging themselves out there for public criticism
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Popie		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 39 03/21/2008 21:31 Directory Listing Pending	I do not see a argument here I see people trying to understand some important factors, or different points of view of things in the Industry. It got me to thinking of something VERY IMPORTANT Safety wise, and I was going to add it to this topic but will put it in tips and tools. I think it even got a cross eyed moron thinking about it, that lost this drawing that I found blowing in my yard, As I would not do such a poor illustration myself. I'm not even sure what in is supposes to mean! Looks like a 3 year old made it to me. I know I shouldn't post this! But like Mommy always told me. As long as people are making fun of you, they are leaving others alone. Last Edited By: Popie 03/21/2008 21:34. Edited 1 time.
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Mr Waialae Chevron		#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4194 03/22/2008 01:22 Featured Member November 2006 Hawaii	Scoobie...please keep this post open...it has generated a lot of theories, and has stimulated a lot of discussion. There is some work in the progress to illustrate what everyone is trying to communicate. There is a lot to be learned here, and all the folks that have forwarded their logic are to be commended! Here's to mud in your eye. Barney
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wreckmster		#36	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2422 03/22/2008 08:24 Featured Member February 2006 1999 Top Ten WreckMaster #94307 Moderator	People who are confused about the weight and the line loads need to attend a WreckMaster class or 2. I'm not debating 10,000lbs is 10,000 lbs. However when using a wire rope around a sheave the line load increases due to angle factor and resistance on the pulley.. pick it with a chain off the D-ring and there's no pulley resistance or angle factor to figure in. It's simply picking 10,000 lbs at the boom It's similar to you have 10,000 lbs stuck in the mud and 10,000 lbs stuck on asphalt or on marbles even... There are variables that factor in the resistance of everything..... How come the one stuck in the mud is so hard to move, it's only 10,000 lbs........... You have to figure all of the variables, not just the weight in question.. That important issue can create a huge safety issue once you start getting the weight up there...Forget to work all the variables and you will quickly be outside your Working Load Limit.... 267-228-5108--- 168219849 -----Steve
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hookin29		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1100 03/22/2008 08:28 New Jersey	Scoobie...please keep this post open...it has generated a lot of theories, and has stimulated a lot of discussion. Yes just like said above this is getting very interesting.. And hows this for an idea. I am sure there is a wreckmaster teacher or even Luciano lurking somewhere on here to tell us the truth on this....
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wreckmster		#38	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2423 03/22/2008 08:48 Featured Member February 2006 1999 Top Ten WreckMaster #94307 Moderator	Daniel, I made this quick diagram will this help you? 267-228-5108--- 168219849 -----Steve
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BIGTOW16148		#39	[url]	[-]
Posts: 87 03/22/2008 10:48	line going to winch is 5,000lbs load on sheave head at 60 deg is 8,650lbs load on snatch block at 0 deg is 10,000lbs load at the hook on boom head is 5,000lbs for a total of 13,650lbs David Garon Preston America WM020447 6/7
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DW Carter		#40	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1651 03/22/2008 10:58 2000 Top Ten WreckMaster #92343	For me the easiest way to understand tip load is to think about the boom sheave as a snatch block attached to a deadman. We all agree that if the lines are parallel and the line load is 10 lbs that the snatch block will have a load of 20 lbs. As the line angles are moved away from each other, keeping the same line load, the load on the snatch block will decrease. The more line that is contacting the sheave, the greater the load on that sheave. Now back to the boom tip, if the weight lifted is 10 lbs. two factors will determine the force on the boom tip. elevation of the boom (higher will result in more line contacting the sheave) and the parts of line supporting the load ( additional line parts will decrease the line load and will be terminated at the boom). Do a search for "Crosby Snatch Block Loading Calculator" you can put in different angles and see the difference it makes. Then think about the sheave on the end of the boom as the snatch block. Wes Wilburn uses a fishing scale in his classes to demonstrate the affects of line angles, pretty interesting. DW Carter WM92343
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